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	<title>Comments on: Down Syndrome and Decision Theory</title>
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		<title>By: Radford Neal</title>
		<link>http://radfordneal.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/down-syndrome-and-decision-theory/#comment-255</link>
		<dc:creator>Radford Neal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 22:21:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://radfordneal.wordpress.com/?p=381#comment-255</guid>
		<description>Note that I had to resort to the &quot;cached&quot; version to get the PDF of the paper mentioned above.

From a brief glance, it seems to be flawed.  It ends up using the expected  value of a utility function, since the utility function is regarded as uncertain.  But the mathematical nature of a utility function makes this expectation operation meaningless.  Utility functions are defined only up to an arbitrary affine transformation, which destroys the ability to take expectations.  

I mentioned this problem to my colleague Craig Boutilier, who has done similar things, which resulted in him writing the following paper that attempts to solve the problem::  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~cebly/Papers/_download_/foundations.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;On the foundations of &lt;i&gt;expected&lt;/i&gt;expected utility&lt;/a&gt;.  I believe that,  unfortunately, this paper does not actually solve the problem, which is essentially the same as the problem of  interpersonal utility comparisons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note that I had to resort to the &#8220;cached&#8221; version to get the PDF of the paper mentioned above.</p>
<p>From a brief glance, it seems to be flawed.  It ends up using the expected  value of a utility function, since the utility function is regarded as uncertain.  But the mathematical nature of a utility function makes this expectation operation meaningless.  Utility functions are defined only up to an arbitrary affine transformation, which destroys the ability to take expectations.  </p>
<p>I mentioned this problem to my colleague Craig Boutilier, who has done similar things, which resulted in him writing the following paper that attempts to solve the problem::  <a href="http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~cebly/Papers/_download_/foundations.pdf" rel="nofollow">On the foundations of <i>expected</i>expected utility</a>.  I believe that,  unfortunately, this paper does not actually solve the problem, which is essentially the same as the problem of  interpersonal utility comparisons.</p>
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		<title>By: Adriana</title>
		<link>http://radfordneal.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/down-syndrome-and-decision-theory/#comment-254</link>
		<dc:creator>Adriana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 09:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://radfordneal.wordpress.com/?p=381#comment-254</guid>
		<description>An interesting post! 
Here is a paper related to this subject 
&lt;a href=&quot;http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.34.6312&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;
 Making Rational Decisions using Adaptive Utility Elicitation (2000) &lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting post!<br />
Here is a paper related to this subject<br />
<a href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.34.6312" rel="nofollow"><br />
 Making Rational Decisions using Adaptive Utility Elicitation (2000) </a></p>
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		<title>By: Corinna</title>
		<link>http://radfordneal.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/down-syndrome-and-decision-theory/#comment-247</link>
		<dc:creator>Corinna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 19:02:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://radfordneal.wordpress.com/?p=381#comment-247</guid>
		<description>I just wanted to comment (enjoyed your post very much) that the question is not when the embryo/fetus becomes &quot;human&quot;.  It is human right from the sperm &amp; oocyte stage (i.e. it isn&#039;t a dog or a cat or a Martian, it has the exact genetic makeup that causes us to call skin cells or hair &quot;human skin cells&quot; or &quot;human hair&quot;.  It is a &quot;human embryo/fetus&quot;).  I would say the question is actually when it becomes a person/its own individual...whether its personhood has equal status to the individual carrying it...whether it is a separate being with its own inherent rights, or part of the mother.  Anyway, this is tangential to your point :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just wanted to comment (enjoyed your post very much) that the question is not when the embryo/fetus becomes &#8220;human&#8221;.  It is human right from the sperm &amp; oocyte stage (i.e. it isn&#8217;t a dog or a cat or a Martian, it has the exact genetic makeup that causes us to call skin cells or hair &#8220;human skin cells&#8221; or &#8220;human hair&#8221;.  It is a &#8220;human embryo/fetus&#8221;).  I would say the question is actually when it becomes a person/its own individual&#8230;whether its personhood has equal status to the individual carrying it&#8230;whether it is a separate being with its own inherent rights, or part of the mother.  Anyway, this is tangential to your point <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://radfordneal.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/down-syndrome-and-decision-theory/#comment-236</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 22:17:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://radfordneal.wordpress.com/?p=381#comment-236</guid>
		<description>I seem to recall that there was a nice article in Chance on this topic.  Maybe within the last 2 yrs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I seem to recall that there was a nice article in Chance on this topic.  Maybe within the last 2 yrs.</p>
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		<title>By: Radford Neal</title>
		<link>http://radfordneal.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/down-syndrome-and-decision-theory/#comment-136</link>
		<dc:creator>Radford Neal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Sep 2008 03:29:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://radfordneal.wordpress.com/?p=381#comment-136</guid>
		<description>Andrew,

I&#039;d be more convinced that they&#039;ve thought of it all already if you gave a reference!

I did some Google searches on things like &quot;amniocentesis&quot; and &quot;Allias Paradox&quot; before posting this, and about the only relevant result was the comment by Dawid that I mentjion in the post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew,</p>
<p>I&#8217;d be more convinced that they&#8217;ve thought of it all already if you gave a reference!</p>
<p>I did some Google searches on things like &#8220;amniocentesis&#8221; and &#8220;Allias Paradox&#8221; before posting this, and about the only relevant result was the comment by Dawid that I mentjion in the post.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Gelman</title>
		<link>http://radfordneal.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/down-syndrome-and-decision-theory/#comment-135</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Gelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Sep 2008 01:09:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://radfordneal.wordpress.com/?p=381#comment-135</guid>
		<description>Radford,

The focus on the medical decision making literature is on general medical recommendations, in this case what is a good age to recommend testing.

Nobody&#039;s being presumptuous here.  Doctors give recommendations, and it&#039;s reasonable for these recommendations to be evidence-based.  Of course the decisions are made by the people affected (well, except for the fetuses involved), but said people might well ask their doctor for advice!

Researchers in medical decision making are well aware of utility theory and the value of information and the risks of testing and all these other things. It&#039;s fine for you to work this out on your own; I just wanted to let you know that there are people who have been working in this area for awhile, and they&#039;re not as naive or simplistic as you might think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Radford,</p>
<p>The focus on the medical decision making literature is on general medical recommendations, in this case what is a good age to recommend testing.</p>
<p>Nobody&#8217;s being presumptuous here.  Doctors give recommendations, and it&#8217;s reasonable for these recommendations to be evidence-based.  Of course the decisions are made by the people affected (well, except for the fetuses involved), but said people might well ask their doctor for advice!</p>
<p>Researchers in medical decision making are well aware of utility theory and the value of information and the risks of testing and all these other things. It&#8217;s fine for you to work this out on your own; I just wanted to let you know that there are people who have been working in this area for awhile, and they&#8217;re not as naive or simplistic as you might think.</p>
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		<title>By: Radford Neal</title>
		<link>http://radfordneal.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/down-syndrome-and-decision-theory/#comment-133</link>
		<dc:creator>Radford Neal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 17:01:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://radfordneal.wordpress.com/?p=381#comment-133</guid>
		<description>Putting a non-negligible value on &quot;peace of mind&quot; would make the Independence Axiom inapplicable.  It would no longer be the case that  &quot;For these last 994 pregnancies, it makes no difference whether amniocentesis is done or not. These pregnancies can therefore be ignored when making a decision.&quot;  Doing amniocentesis on these 994 pregnancies would have the good effect of reassuring the parents.

However, I think it&#039;s crazy to value &quot;peace of mind&quot; enough to make it a signficant consideration.  (This isn&#039;t a mathematical judgement, obviously, but rather a moral one.) If some couples have amniocentesis done for this reason (or even if this is a significant factor in their decision), then I think the medical profession has an ethical problem, since these couples&#039; uneasiness is probably largely iatrogenic - a result of medical professionals having discussed the issue with them, perhaps too much.

I think &quot;future regret&quot; is not a sensible consideration when making a decision.  It&#039;s basically double-counting the bad consequence.  To the extent that it might not be explained that way, it&#039;s counting the utility of someone other than the decision-maker, since &quot;you&quot; and &quot;you-in-the-future&quot; are not the same person. 

Andrews comments about the medical decision making literature don&#039;t contian references, but if they are about &quot;what is a reasonable age threshold to recommend for the test&quot;, then I think they are far too simplistic.  For one thing, recommendations today should not be based just on age, but on non-invasive tests.  For another, it&#039;s medically presumtuous to think that a &quot;threshold&quot; can be decided on by medical ethics people, rather than by the people actually affected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Putting a non-negligible value on &#8220;peace of mind&#8221; would make the Independence Axiom inapplicable.  It would no longer be the case that  &#8220;For these last 994 pregnancies, it makes no difference whether amniocentesis is done or not. These pregnancies can therefore be ignored when making a decision.&#8221;  Doing amniocentesis on these 994 pregnancies would have the good effect of reassuring the parents.</p>
<p>However, I think it&#8217;s crazy to value &#8220;peace of mind&#8221; enough to make it a signficant consideration.  (This isn&#8217;t a mathematical judgement, obviously, but rather a moral one.) If some couples have amniocentesis done for this reason (or even if this is a significant factor in their decision), then I think the medical profession has an ethical problem, since these couples&#8217; uneasiness is probably largely iatrogenic &#8211; a result of medical professionals having discussed the issue with them, perhaps too much.</p>
<p>I think &#8220;future regret&#8221; is not a sensible consideration when making a decision.  It&#8217;s basically double-counting the bad consequence.  To the extent that it might not be explained that way, it&#8217;s counting the utility of someone other than the decision-maker, since &#8220;you&#8221; and &#8220;you-in-the-future&#8221; are not the same person. </p>
<p>Andrews comments about the medical decision making literature don&#8217;t contian references, but if they are about &#8220;what is a reasonable age threshold to recommend for the test&#8221;, then I think they are far too simplistic.  For one thing, recommendations today should not be based just on age, but on non-invasive tests.  For another, it&#8217;s medically presumtuous to think that a &#8220;threshold&#8221; can be decided on by medical ethics people, rather than by the people actually affected.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Gelman</title>
		<link>http://radfordneal.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/down-syndrome-and-decision-theory/#comment-132</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Gelman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 01:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://radfordneal.wordpress.com/?p=381#comment-132</guid>
		<description>Ale, Bman:  These are good points but I don&#039;t think they refute Radford&#039;s point (which has been made in detail in the medical decision making literature); they just represent additional terms in the utility function.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ale, Bman:  These are good points but I don&#8217;t think they refute Radford&#8217;s point (which has been made in detail in the medical decision making literature); they just represent additional terms in the utility function.</p>
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		<title>By: Bman</title>
		<link>http://radfordneal.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/down-syndrome-and-decision-theory/#comment-116</link>
		<dc:creator>Bman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:35:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If &quot;most people are not extremists — they neither believe that a fertilized egg is fully human, nor believe that a fetus just about to be born has no moral standing&quot;, shouldn&#039;t the 16-week old fetus&#039;s utility be given some consideration and the 24-week fetus&#039;s utility be given even more consideration?  If it is neither &quot;fully human&quot; nor has &quot;no moral standing&quot;, it should at least get some weight and presumably increasing weight as time passes.  What would the fetus think about getting tested, being aborted, etc.?  Presumably, it has the will to live.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If &#8220;most people are not extremists — they neither believe that a fertilized egg is fully human, nor believe that a fetus just about to be born has no moral standing&#8221;, shouldn&#8217;t the 16-week old fetus&#8217;s utility be given some consideration and the 24-week fetus&#8217;s utility be given even more consideration?  If it is neither &#8220;fully human&#8221; nor has &#8220;no moral standing&#8221;, it should at least get some weight and presumably increasing weight as time passes.  What would the fetus think about getting tested, being aborted, etc.?  Presumably, it has the will to live.</p>
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		<title>By: ale</title>
		<link>http://radfordneal.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/down-syndrome-and-decision-theory/#comment-115</link>
		<dc:creator>ale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 12:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://radfordneal.wordpress.com/?p=381#comment-115</guid>
		<description>There seems to be no utility value assigned above to the &quot;peace of mind&quot; provided by the amniotic fluid test should it come back Down&#039;s-negative.  Or the predicted future regret on not having done the test in case the child is Down&#039;s positive (whether predicted future regret should happen to a rational decision maker or not does not prevent it from existing to humans and thus forming part of the real utility function).  My guess is that these two would be important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There seems to be no utility value assigned above to the &#8220;peace of mind&#8221; provided by the amniotic fluid test should it come back Down&#8217;s-negative.  Or the predicted future regret on not having done the test in case the child is Down&#8217;s positive (whether predicted future regret should happen to a rational decision maker or not does not prevent it from existing to humans and thus forming part of the real utility function).  My guess is that these two would be important.</p>
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